Mike Holmes - Another RINO

Just for clarity, I am officially a RIPO..Republican in Principle Only. I am now a DTS voter because of people like Holmes who pollute the party.

All veterans who served this country get my respect. I never had to serve however my father is a veteran who won the Silver Star and Puple Heart. He has told me that the soldiers he served with were from all different walks of life and view points. Each were blessed and cursed with ther own talents and weakness. But ALL were brave when they had to be. In that light I will respect the opinion of men and women who served this country and have a different point of view then myself.

The local post of the American Legion and its commander, Earl Montgomery should be commended for taking the high road and allowing the VFP to participate. I understand that the only VFP members that will march are actual veterans and that they will not engage in a "protest" , unless displaying a banner that has a dove on it is considered protest. That being the case, shame on anybody that turns his back on any veteran marching in the parade. And if YS throws any tomatoes, don't expect me to post his bail.

"The local post of the American Legion and its commander, Earl Montgomery should be commended for taking the high road and allowing the VFP to participate."

so the American Legion owns the parade and Veterans day? .....we do have freedom of speech and expression here, and as a veteran, I find this infighting childish, we all served, most of us I hope honorably, whether or not we believed in the politics at the time, or now, its irrelevant, we are still veterans

YS, As a Decline to State I guess you vote for democrats in the primary elections in California because DTS can't vote in Republican primaries. Now I know for sure that you and CanyonRat are the same person with a split personality.

I will turn my back on the VFP. I respect the ones that are veterans but I don't respect their political views.

As americans the Veterans for Peace (VFP) have every right to free speech, as that is one of the priciple foundations on which this country stands. I am going to quote another poster on this board who made a statement that says it better than I could. "because there is free speech doesn't mean that we have any obligation to use it." He went on to say "Once in a while it seems that out of respect for others that we might have a parade with nothing in mind than honoring those that have served. Just that and nothing else. Haven't they have earned at least that?"

I am going to honor my American soldiers, but not the Veterans for Peace organization. I will turn my back to them.

Maybe the Veterans for Peace with their reported 144 chapters should form their own parade on another day and not impose on somebody else's parade that attracts millions of people nation wide. VFP is just riding on the coat tails of the local VFW and cities nation wide that have had Veterans Day Parades for decades to gain media attention. For without the Veterans Day Parade, nobody would really know that the VFP is really a nation wide organization would we?

chase: I agree with your perspective. The VFP should do their protest somewhere else.

That being said, I have been convinced that throwing tomatoes (even though they are in perfect season for it) is not the appropriate behavior. I will simply glare at them and perhaps turn my back. I might also give them a 1 finger salute if I catch one of their eyes. I might have a sign for them.

I should mention that I honor and respect the service that some VFP members have provided to our nation but I vehemently disagree with some of their tactics in the political debate over the war on terror. I think that some of them are traitors in the way they have emboldened our enemies. As for those VFP members who are not veterans, are socialists, and are strictly there to antagonize, I have no respect at all.

JonGreen, resident Ferengi Tea Party/ Move America Forward propagandist, STILL can't figure out that Yo-Yo and I are not the same person.

But you're both Republicans working the same angle- keep attacking the President and the Democrats, keep war mongering, keep up those religious, gender, and race baiting themes, and KEEP MCCLINTOCK IN OFFICE to keep the local gravy train coming.

If you aren't for Peace, you're for WAR. War = profits for you and your friends.

If you aren't for freedom of speech, you're for censorship. You are the ones who make a mockery of what people have fought and died for.

I don't understand how any of you can say that you're against the Veteran's for Peace. You'll turn your back on them because of what they stand for - peace? Really? You love war that much? Every person I've ever met who has been involved in war says that same thing - it's hell. These men and women have seen things that none of us should ever have to see and it changes them. The world looks different to them after that. It changed who they were. Why do you think our Veterans have such a high suicide rate, high levels of PTSD, and high levels of alcoholism and drug abuse? I can tell you that a large part of it is that fighting in a war, killing people and trying not to be killed, seeing your comrades die, is traumatic. War is traumatic.

I can think of nothing more poetic and right than veterans who have experienced this hell and have managed to pick up their lives and move forward being vehicles for Peace.

Admitting that war is wrong does not deny the gift of the sacrifice of the fallen. Indeed, I think the pursuit of the prevention of others falling in war is the best homage you can pay. If you ask a Veteran what he fought for he or she will likely say Freedom.

As for those of you who would turn your backs on these Veterans who embrace peace - You are also the people who see things in terms of good and evil, black and white, right and wrong. Unfortunately our world is not a dichotomy. We are all in this together, and the sooner we see that the better our chance.

Its a matter of time and place. This particular even should be above the politicization that it is VFP's intention to bring. There are people that support their position that still feel this is an inappropriate time and place for them to share it. It would be silly to assume that people not supporting the VFP and their political tactics may not share their feelings on war in general. Personally if I attend I would turn not my back or anything else. I see no reason to participate in the politics at any level. For me it is a day for thanks and I have many other days in the year to choose to express my political views.

JonGreen

It was my understanding the there is only one race that DTS voters could not participate in which is the Republican Presidential primary. I had read that the motion to forbid it from other primary races was withdrawn. I know that DTS voters were allowed in the other primaries in 06 and 08. Did I miss a change somewhere?

The website for the Veterans for Peace is: www.veteransforpeace.org. (Not '.com' as stated in the article.)

And it looks like the American Legion may be accepting membership from female veterans, so good for them: www.legion.org. (They need some younger members.)

I wish I could be at the parade. I would NOT be turning my back on any veteran.

this is all sad now you do not know to go right or left or stay in the center?

YSam - You're actually a reasonable guy when you don't slidel into Neocon Hawk talk.

First off, for you to say that you "honor and respect the service that SOME VFP members have provided to our nation" betrays the fact that you define a veteran as someone who agrees with you.

Second. "emboldening our enemies" is not only illogical it assumes that "our enemies" have been going easy on us up til now) but the underlying message is that we'd better not upset them, or else we'll REALLY get hurt.

- Dubai TV reports that a bomber detonated a booby-trapped motorcycle killing more than 34 people and injuring 20 others at the Pakistani Armed Forces Headquarters, which was also bombed last month.

- Insurgents stormed Kabul's luxury Serena Hotel -- next to the Presidential Palace -- killing six people.

- Five people died in a bomb attack inside the Information Ministry, located in the heart of Kabul.

- Insurgents stormed two government buildings, including the Justice Ministry across from the Presidential Palace. More than 20 people were killed and nearly 50 wounded.

How much more "emboldened" can they get?

It is people like Mike Holmes that made me leave the Republican Party. I look forward to voting him out of office. The committee should be ashamed of themselves, in my opinion. Like I have said before, VFP have the right to free speech, but the Veteran’s parade is not the place for their demonstration. The committee has allowed the VFP to lower the standard of the parade. I’m sure many will avoid the parade because of the VFP. I may avoid it from now on myself. If I do go, I will certainly turn my back on those traitors. Most of you that are supporting them know that they are not just “veterans for peace.” They are veterans “against our military.” That is the problem I have with them. We all want peace, despite the ridiculous comments by a few party hacks that have posted above. We all want peace, but when war comes to us, the true veteran is proud that he/she served their country and would do anything to support our troops, not rally with Code Pink and other communists against our troops. Please, spare me the “Code Pink isn’t full of communists.” Go to the Communist Party USA web page and you will see their sister organizations that work with them, for example, the unions, Code Pink, VFP and many others.

Yosemite_Sam: Their mere presence in the parade..even holding a banner representing a dove does NOT constitute protest, but the rest of you who want to protest..by turning your backs on them or flipping them off...need to separate YOURSELVES from the parade altogether if you don't think this event is the time or place to protest....what hypocrites you are.

Patrick50

I know Mike Holmes to be a fine and honest man that happens to be a decorated veteran himself. We have no idea what his position is, just that an unsubstantiated quote about a letter that we haven't seen.

Words like "traitors" would indicate that you may be succumbing to political hysteria. Certainly differing opinions, political dissent and the pursuit of peace are not traitorous acts. Our founding fathers were political dissidents and Christ said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." Both are noble pursuits, I would like us to keep them from the more traditional reason of this particular event.

OK People, Here's a quote I've been waiting a long time to lay on you.

"Let us not hear of generals who conquer without bloodshed.

If a bloody slaughter is a horrible sight, then that is grounds

for paying more respect to war, but not for making the sword we wear

blunter and blunter by degrees from the feelings of humanity,

until someone steps in with one that is sharp and lops off an arm from our

body.

Karl Von Clausewitz

On War, Book 6

Ch. 26.

Arming The Nation"

richwise

Animosity toward those who embrace peace is disturbing. I wouldn't see reason to attend where promoters of peace received a "begrudging blessing".

I think a lot of people have some misconceptions about Veterans for Peace. I am not aware of them having done anything that is disrespectful of veterans. Some people believe that trying to find alternatives to war can be the greatest work anyone can do for the veteran, as well for living things in general.

Here is VFP's Mission Statement (please pay special attention to (d) below):

STATEMENT OF PURPOSE

We, having dutifully served our nation, do hereby affirm our greater responsibility to serve the cause of world peace. To this end we will work, with others

(a) To increase public awareness of the costs of war

(b) To restrain our government from intervening, overtly and covertly, in the internal affairs of other nations

(c) To end the arms race and to reduce and eventually eliminate nuclear weapons

(d) To seek justice for veterans and victims of war

(e) To abolish war as an instrument of national policy.

To achieve these goals, members of Veterans For Peace pledge to use non-violent means and to maintain an organization that is both democratic and open with the understanding that all members are trusted to act in the best interests of the group for the larger purpose of world peace.

Skeptic: Lee Harvey Oswald was a veteran. John Wilkes Booth was a veteran. Nidal Malik Hasan is technically a veteran although still in service.

Not all people who have served in our military are honorable.

Not all VFP are honorable. Some are, some are not. Unfortunately its hard to tell the difference.

If you are honest, you have to admit that many of those who have been defending VFP have been virulent anti-Bush and left-wing agents in the political realm. (Chimp and Darth?)

The enemy loves to see people protesting in the USA because it gives them hope we will walk away like Vietnam.

In my opinion, regardless of whether our entry into battle was for the best reasons, once we are in, we should fight as hard as possible to suppress the enemy, then get out with honor. Fighting on the home front and calling our troops murderers and rapists while they are in battle, is NOT supporting the troops.

Cavoter, True, we haven’t substantiated the letter. However, I stand by the “traitors” remark. A spokesman for VFP was written up in the AJ a couple of years ago admitting that you can’t be against the war and NOT be against the warriors. Do any of you recall that article? Do you not consider Code Pink traitors? Would you not consider any organization a traitor if they did everything they could to derail our military like they did in Berkley? They attempted to have the recruiter’s office kicked out. When they could not achieve their objective, they worked to have NO parking spaces for our military personnel that worked in that office. Come on, we all know the games these groups play and where they stand. BTW, as I said before, if they don’t protest, if they just march, I have no problem with them being in the parade, but I have the right to free speech, too. I look forward to turning my back on traitors. Have a great weekend to all.

Patrick50

I wasn't aware of that comment and would take exception to. I can see how someone given to stronger language than I may get to the point that you did. I don't pay any attention to Code Pink you can tell me about them some time. You have a great weekend as well.

As comments opposed to Veterans for Peace pile up and pile on, let's recall the famous quote attributed to Voltaire, one which should resonate with all who serve and believe in democracy: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Nobody ever said Democracy would be easy, but it is worth defending on the battlefield and off. Thank you to veterans of all stripes who help it prevail.

Hey, CA04_V: Did you notice that the stop sign at the bottom of our hill that had "war" spray painted on it has been cleaned up? Thanks to whomever did that. I am not a "war monger", but I didn't appreciate that someone felt the need to deface a street sign in protest.

GailBegin

Nope I didn't see it. I don't understand the need to tag but I do know that if you keep removing or covering it fast the problem tends to disappear.

MmeYana, I don't think anyone has a problem with peace, it's the flavor of peace AT ANY COST favored by the "Veterans" for Peace that people have problem with.

Our son is in the Marines. He was not drafted. He wanted to serve. As a memeber of Operation:MOM we support those who are serving in the armed forces. Whether you voted Rep or Dem the fact that you voted is enough to thank a vet. Please be respectful of those who have served and are serving also remember that they have families. To use this parade as a protest against the government speaks volumes in a way that you may not intend. Protest in a different way on a different day. Be respectful of the cost and the price -freedom is not free.

richwise,

Outstanding quote.

11/6/09 1:16PM

How many of the VFP were Vietnam vets? How would they have liked to have Jane Fonda show up at their homecoming? The VFP make it a point to go onto any high school campus that will let them and propogate bad thinking such as 9-11 conspiracies- (Dick Cheney planned the whole thing) They are as in touch with what will bring about real peace as Cindy Sheehan is. The VFP belongs at a Veteran's Day Parade about as much as pork ribs belong at a barmitzvah or an In-N-Out hamburger belongs at a vegan potluck. It all comes down to motives.

The VFW represents those that help keep this nation free and be able to use their 1st amendment right to free speech. Those that practise their free speech would be better served if they knew when to raise their voice. The Veterans for Peace have the right to be present. Their insistence on marching to rebuke those that are members of the VFW is in poor taste. This practise has become popular with many organizations that love to get some press, whether it good or bad.

I find reading all the blogs about this parade to be somewhat humorous.

In the next 50 or fewer years, for each blogger, (I am included), this entire issue will somehow become irrelevant.

Wakefield- You nailed it! These kooks were at Colfax High three years ago and were telling my son how Dick Cheney was responsible for 9-11. Nast was the kook doing the talking. When I went to the school to complain I was told it was a "student sponsored" deal. The advisor for the student group plays a vital role at the school by teaching modern dance and is also the advisor for the Gay-straight alliance. His name is Steve Rigney. I got the usual B.S. from him about how they just want to provide kids with a wide variety of all different views, bla, bla, bla... So I asked him if he would bring Ahmadinijad on campus to explain to kids that the holocaust never really happened. Things got loud after that. These jerks have no idea how peace comes about or how to keep it. They have corrupted the word itself. The principal at Colfax, Rick Spears, told me himself that the reason VFP should be allowed on campus is because military recruiters are also allowed. I asked him to verify what I thought he was saying- that VFP was a sort of "equal time" offset for military recruiters, and he said yes. Poor guy, I think he only has one ovary. Despite all the lip service from VFP about supporting the troops, the proof is not in their empty words, but in the hearts of the troops themselves. They don't feel supported by VFP anymore than the NAACP feels supported by the Klan.

"turning backs on VFP's?" That's weak. It's Veteran's day....not political opinion day; that day typically occurrs on a Nov 4th. Honor those who had to fight in support of our nation. Period.

As long as nations exist that choose to control world resources by use of force and arms, continue to force their religious agendas on whole populations of people, continue to threaten commerce and the rights of those who would try and better their position in life, our armed forces will continue to be the point of the spear for national policy, Dems or Reps. Want to stop the violence? Then dominate the world and take away all arms, pacify billions of people and whole cultures world wide, use the nukes we spent millions of dollars to build. Since that is clearly not realistic, we can expect more conflict as the world's political arena continues to change and evolve with new threats.

Glad we agree on Novemebr 11 being a day to support those who have served and are still serving.

"A nation reveals itself not only by the men it produces but also by the men it honors, the men it remembers."

John F. Kennedy

As far as the "As long as nations exist that choose to control world resources by use of force and arms and continue to force their religious agendas on whole populations of people, threaten commerce and rights of those who want to better their position in life crap goes. Tell that to the NY city taxi guy who sent the Muslim Fort Hood shooter a "Get Well" card.

Let me guess. You are one of those highly intellectual thinkers who have an "end this war" bumper sticker next to "save Tibet." How does that work out? Instead of using bullets and road side bombs we can all engaged in a global "We are the World" peace chant. Now that is realistic. Maybe you should have been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

The purpose of this day is to pay respect to those who have served or are serving as well as their family and friends. So if you are amoung those who object to VFP's presence, the burden is yours alone as to wheather it's elevated to the level of protest. Let it truley be a day of respect. Stand front and center and present yourself to all. Turn your back and your childish behavior will be disrespectful to those we've chosen to respect on this day The VFP has a commendable agenda, how can you argue with someone who chooses to promote peace. I seriously doubt that the disenters amoung you have 1st hand info regarding the events of last year. So let the show go on and keep your backs to the back. If something should be given another venue it shold be your grumbling

JohnSiether, Thanks for that info. I so look forward to turning my back on these traitors. The shodscats and jab1pc type will not look at the events on record that VFP are responsible for or they’re in agreement with turning their backs on our solders as the VFP do.

They plan to carry a banner that shows their website and a peace dove, all will be veterans. Why would this be considered disrespectful protest? I'd say turning your back on veterans qualifies as disrespectful protest. I find it incredibly sad that these men are being called traitors when they have clearly earned the right to feel however they want to about war, having lived it, unlike some commenters here who have not. Those here who are not veterans themselves, and have not served, how do you know you would not feel the same way? You don't. However, "If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all." So while I despise the false patriotism of some here, I appreciate that someone came up with a solution to avoid assault. I don't agree with those who want to turn their back on veterans, but it's your right. If you want to disrespectfully protest veterans on Veterans Day, go ahead. I myself find parades tedious and dull and show my respect and support of the military in other ways, but last year Ginnyo came on and commented at how good it made him feel to be appreciated, so I will attend, and will thank ALL veterans, and will do my best to ignore those who clearly have very little understanding of what the VFP is even about. Anyone who did would know just how much they do for soldiers, in particular those returning from the current conflicts. What a disappointment this town can be sometimes, what a shame.

well said kitty

I posted this on another article thread about this subject, but it seems appropriate here as well:

Veterans Day, i.e. Armistice Day was originally proclaimed in 1919 by President Wilson to observe the end of WWI and was later (1938) made a legal annual holiday by Congress to be "a day to be dedicated TO THE CAUSE OF WORLD PEACE and to be thereafter celebrated and known as 'Armistice Day" [emphasis mine]. In 1953, Al King, a Kansas shoe store owner, pushed to have Armistice Day celebrate ALL veterans and President Eisenhower signed it into law in 1954, at which time "Veteran's Day" became the common name for the holiday. Given that the day was originally dedicated to "the cause of world peace" and later made to include ALL veterans, I really don't see the problem with Veterans For Peace members marching in a parade. (I'm also not sure how marching down the street with other veterans, high school bands, etc. is a protest, but I respect the right of others to see this differently and protest themselves by turning their back on the Veterans). Therefore, it is my sincere hope that this year's Auburn parade will indeed be peaceful and honor all veterans - those who are pro-war and those who are anti-war, each has more than earned the right to free-speech. The above citation is from Wikipedia.

Lets see now.. its OK for the VFP to protest the war, but its not OK for those who disagree with them to protest their actions?

Hypocrites!

They dishonor our troops. They deserve tomatoes, but since this is a nation of laws, they will get only my backside.

Published in today's Auburn Journal by Ed Scotten:

David is just the latest in a long line of patriotic hypocrites hiding behind our “true heroes” as a ruse to justify an illegal and unnecessary occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and the accompanying slaughter of hundreds of thousands of mostly innocent victims of this senseless bloodshed.

From the mouth of the enemy. Oh wait, he is a veteran..like Benedict Arnold, Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, and a string of others who served their country then turned against it.

Bookliz, How arrogant and ignorant of you to insinuate that some veterans are “pro-war.” All veterans are for peace. Some veterans, however, are against the U.S. armed services as the VFP are. If they are just for peace, why do they continually make efforts to hurt our military? Are we to do away with our military? What is it about the enemy you people can’t see?

p50 - how arrogant and ignorant of you to insinuate that some veterans are not "pro-war". Since you can't possibly know all veterans how do you KNOW that they are ALL for peace? What is it about the TRUTH that "you people" can't see?

Another empty headed post from my little stalker :)

Another empty headed post from p50.