Firefighters, city disagree on pay increase issue
Union seeking meeting to discuss contract terms
Is the city not agreeing to share the burden? Or are firefighters asking for more in a time when there is less? Details emerged this week as to why the city of Auburn and its firefighters have been stalled in contract negotiations since March. This week, city council members unanimously voted to impose a one-year contract during which firefighters’ pay and benefits would be reduced by 12 percent. Richard Reed, who was hired to represent the Auburn Firefighters Association, said firefighters are frustrated that city management didn’t agree to withhold any bonuses or pay increases while firefighters are being asked to take a 3.15 percent cut in base salary and 9 percent in the employees’ PERS contribution. “The firefighters wanted a guarantee that if they give up their salary increases, no one else in the city is going to get a salary increase during the same time,” Reed said. “From what I was told, the city wouldn’t put that in writing.” City manager Bob Richardson, however, countered that the council does not intend to offer any bonuses this fiscal year and didn’t want to determine one union’s contract based on an agreement with another. Richardson said the city’s negotiator drafted a letter regarding whether or not managers would receive raises but it was “deemed unacceptable” by the firefighters association. He said could not comment on the details of negotiations, including what was in the letter, but said the council “has no intention of providing bonuses this year.” When asked what issue in negotiations was most difficult for city officials Richardson said compensation was one. “We simply could not see increasing compensation during a difficult financial time,” Richardson said. Richardson declined to comment further as to what specifically the union was requesting. Reed did not return a call Friday afternoon asking for further comment. The union hired Reed Oct. 17 to help with the stalled negotiation process. Immediately, Reed said he sent two letters to the city. One letter informed them that he would be representing the union and another requested that they hold off on imposing a contract until they could meet again with the city’s negotiator and a mediator. Reed said the city’s request that the union send over their new ideas in writing first does not meet the terms of meeting in good faith. Richardson said city counsel “doesn’t concur” with that idea. He said the city has requested the new proposals in writing so it can prepare ahead of time for the meeting. Reed said union members “absolutely understand” the current economic climate and are willing to take their share of cuts. However, he added that firefighters work one-third more hours a year than the average city employee. Reed said most city workers log about 2,080 hours a year while firefighters work about 2,912 hours a year. “They should take a cut similar to what other city employees but due to the nature of work they do, it’s pretty hard to furlough firefighters when the city has to work them overtime just to meet the minimum staffing for safety requirements,” Reed said. Richardson said the cuts imposed on firefighters Monday will save the city about $63,753 and amount to about 8 percent of the $763,711 in total payroll budget cuts for the 2009-2010 fiscal year. Other unions in the city including police, Local 39 and upper and mid-management, have taken pay or staffing cuts, Richardson said. The police union’s cuts amounted to $154,786, Local 39’s cuts were about $394,759 and management salary reductions were $150,413, Richardson said. While long-time Auburn resident Jeff Patton said he understands the difficult economic times, he said overall cuts should be from elsewhere other than to public safety. “We want to retain our public safety and emergency services personnel,” Patton said. “We should be looking at nonessential jobs as places where we can make the cuts.” Jenifer Gee can be reached at jeniferg@goldcountrymedia.com.
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Let the negotiators hash this out by the rules. No one outside the two parties knows enough about what is happening other than reading posts and letters from both sides, needless to say they will be biased towards the writers side. Making this a media issue will only create bad will.
I wouldn't want to take a cut when management was getting increases either. Why wouldn't the city agree to that unless.....
In these tough economic times, and so many out of work, including firefighters, it amazes me that this is even happening, if the firefighters dont like the salary, quit and go elesewhere, otherwise feel fortuante that you have a job...and stop whining
Realist:
The City did agree that there would be no bonuses or raises for managers or other employees as Mr Richardson said. On the advice of our attorney, we were not willing to put it into one unions contract (the firefighters) statements that would affect other employees. We refused to put it in writing but made a promise that could be used against us if we reneged. The negotiating rules are again that we never received a response to our last best and final offer. Once we do we will negotiate and that is how it is done according to our attorney and Mr Reed knows it. We have never refused to negotiate. I guess we could hire more full time firefighters ( beyond the part time ones we have) but that would reduce the overtime the firefighters make and it is my impression they do not want a reduction in that pay.
Dr Bill Kirby
Auburn City Council
Auburnite is just an unemployed hater. Hey auburnite. How about you get off your lazy butt and get a job first before commenting on other people's jobs. As far as the city making public safety cuts while reserving the right to give manager's pay raises.....sounds familiar. Like city like county.
Harleyrider:
You don not seem to be able to read or choose to ignore the facts. The city promised there would be no bonuses and everyone took a 10% cut. We just would not write into one unions contract terms that affect other employees. If we were stupid enough to go ahead and give raises or bonuses it could easily be used against us. We did give them what they asked for just not written into their contract.
Dr Bill Kirby
The firefighters have not asked for pay raises.
I am a bit confused... if everyone took a 10% cut.. why do I read the imposed contract cost the FF's 12%.
The cops and public works are a larger departments and that is why it shows they are giving up more.
Stumpbranch:
They are all giving up the same 10% savings and you understand that.
Dr Bill Kirby
Doc. I read just fine. I would expect a politician to be a bit more tactful but it seems like you spend a bit too much time postig and not enough trying to be a bit more creative with the budget. As far as not giving out bonuses you will never convince me of your argument. No one these days trusts you guys. It is what it is.
Harleyrider:
It is Sunday and before I head into work I check online. What have I done that you do not trust me?
I am not a financial analyst but we have tried to be creative. We will continue to look harder.I try to be as available and transparent as possible. I understand disagreements but what do I have to gain by lying? I just try to give my point of view as a City Council member.
There are always two points of view. As to my being tactful, sorry, I never thought of myself as a politician but could have phrased it better.
Ride safe.
Bill Kirby
The one thing I see as being missed here is that the firefighter still have to do the same amount of work with a 12% decrease in pay and benefits. Do the rest of the city employees have to continue to perform at the same level? The other thing that is not being discussed is if we do lose these firefighters to a higher paying department you also lose the training dollars invested. A new firefighter who has to now be trained to meet Ca. State Fire Marshall, NFPA, NWCG and local emergency medical standards can easily top $75,000 these days. Basically Auburn becomes a training ground for other departments throughout the area. I believe they call that a bad business decision.
auburnite: So let me get this right, you are telling our small number of Firefighters to just " quit and go eleswhere"? Wow thats just brilliant tell them to go away and we are left with no Firefighters to protect us? And I dont think its fair to tell Firefighters that have been on this dept for many many years to just throw that away and go elsewhere. I just hope this gets resolved soon, they really dont need more stress.
These firefighters are not going to quit and look else where. Most fire departments have hiring freezes, lay offs or pay cuts. As this unfolds it seems the city and city council are acting in the intrest of all city employees, not being strong armed by one union. Do you really think the city is going to let one union have a clause if any other department or manager gets a raise? I don't think so, if they did there would be new city council elected on the next term.
All the other departments have already taken their pay cuts. The firefighters got to for go their pay cuts for 6 months. Again the property taxes have dropped more then 25% in the last 2 years. I am also guesssing sales tax is way behind, businesss closing ( Gottschalks) and many more. Wait until the lag hits the city government. Their will be more pay cuts. It is time for people to open their eyes and realize this economy has deep impacts.
It is time for the firefighters to stop complaining in a public forum, take a real offer to the table, don't try to strong arm the city council. The more this is voiced the more the tax payers are going to realize how good the fire department has it. Up to 90% of salary for rest of their life after retirement. Full health and dental, sick leave, and much more.... Do they really wnat to brag in this tough economic period? Really they just got a 20% raise in the last 3 years. Have some respect for the city council or go run yourself.
Taxpayer. Look at the average life expectancy of cops and firefighters post retirement. You, as the taxpayer, are getting a good deal. Doc, I didn't accuse you of lying. As a whole, those who manage government seem to be a bit untruthful. Just take look at the BOS. Have a good day at work.
Mommyof1, don't waste your keystrokes on auburnite. He never responds back. He prefers drive by posts and then he's gone.
Taxpayer, I want to make sure you know that Auburn firefighters have already left and gone to Cal Fire & Sacramento City among others for better pay and a more secure workplace. They also took along with them the training invested in them. How many Sac. City firefighters do you see coming to Auburn? Thats right we invest a lot of money in training just to watch them leave and take it somewhere else. Our tax dollars spent for the benefit of another community because of issues like these. The 20% raise payed over the ast 5-7 years was to bring Auburn up to the pay of what was being paid by departments around Placer County. A cheaper investment to keep the investment already made in training. Training is not just in the classroom, the field training and experience is hard to put a dollar amount on but wort its weight in gold when there is a life and death situation.
The average life span of firefighter after retirement based on recent studies is 7 years. Those that live longer suffer from various forms of cancer ,chronic lung issues along with back and knee problems. Is it really a quality retirement?
Auburn fireighters asked for a very reasonable and fair request to make sure ALL that work for Auburn get an equal take of their paychecks and benefits. Woudn't you want it in writing if you were in their shoes?
Tax payer, ask the Doc about the salary survey the city did that shows the fire departments pay is 40% blow the average Placer county wages.
Harleyrider, The firefigters average life expectancy has increased signifigantly. Go to Palm Springs or Florida in the winter and see how many of the 70 year old people are retired firefighers...alot. The firefighters of a generation or two ago didn't have the strict regulations to protect their well being. What other careers do you retire at 50? The average retirement age is 62, they are retiring 12 years sooner. That is a hugh benefit. They have wellness programs, they are paid to keep in shape, physicals and much more, sick leave.
Come work in private industry, where there are no givens. Come swing a hammer and run a saw for 40 hours. Look at the average life expectancy of a construction worker or a auto mechanic. The internet is a great serach tool, you cna look up facts and figures until the cows come home. Look up City of Vallejo, they went bankrupt because of strong arm unions. If you don't like what your elected officials are doing then run for office. Dr. Kirby puts in lots of hours per month, basically for free, I forgot $270 a month. I am sure he could find something more appealing to do then to be bagged on by half truths. At least he is responding to comments.
Smokey bear, I am guessing that Sacramento city has several hundred firefighters and Calfire has many more. It does not seem odd that firefighters would leave as tiny department and search out better pay and benefits. I am also guessing that not all of you started your fire jobs at Auburn, so what about the departments that invested in your training? Change is good, the tax payers as a whole benefit as long as the firefighter keeps working.
Stumpbranch, Maybe Auburn is a head of the curve. Look at Vallejo (bankrupt). These cities and counties can't keep up these wages and benefits, the unfunded liablity that is waiting down the road is going to be to much. Many more cities are heading that direction. Look at Rocklin, there top staff has taken huge pay cuts. So when it all boils out in two years, maybe Auburns salaries will be right in line. If making over a $100,000 a year with overtime and benefits isn't enough, private industry is waiting.... come collect garabage for 40 hours a week. Garabage men are exposed to all kinds of stuff every hour of evry day. You don't see them complaining.
My last post should have said firefighters life span after retirement is 17 years not 7.
Taxpayer in reading your last post and your comment about working in private industry is a choice you made. No one twisted your arm to work in construction just the same as the firefighters chose the work they do. Each comes with its own set of ups and downs. Everyone in construction knows that come winter work usually slows down. But how much extra money did you make when the housing industry was booming? Would you hae been willing to work for $15 an hour when everyone around you was working for $30 doing the same thing? Would you be willing to work for less and then watch people above you getting completion bonuses and not sharing with you? This is no different and Auburn firefighters are just fighting to pay for their homes, educations and kids like everyone else!
Life is full of choices, do you always take hitsfrom life and walk away without a fight? If so then you have become the sheep of the nation!
Taxpayer I am a retired firefighter and never worked a day for Auburn City. I do know some of the guys from Auburn FD enough to say they are not chasing the money. It is a pride of ownership if you will for their department. The firefighters that have left were afraid of trying to have a life with the constant worry of the uncertainty that comes from being in a small department. None of them wanted to leave and in fact agonized over leaving but did it for family.
The choice of being in private business is good in the sense you have the opportunity of being able to work hard when it is sunny. Save for a rainy day. Our government works for the constituents, you and I. If the government doesn't rein it in they will go broke. I have never once said that the firefighter shouldn't go after a decent pension and salary. But as a union they need to use caution about how they go about the process of securing their contracts. As more posts come out, the firefighters weren't telling everything that was proposed. Why in the world add a clause " If other city departmnets get a raise or a manager gets a raise, we do"?
Again, the days of unlimited tax dollars coming in are over. Be thankful that. Life is full of choices, careful how you fight your battles, you want to use a open forum like this and things slowly leak out. Put this engery into a tax assement like Placer Hills and Loomis. Those residents must think highly of their fire depatment..because they passed.
Mr. Taxpayer let me ask you a question. Have you raised your prices in private business during these tough economic times, or have you lowered them to help everyone out that is struggling? If you were a firefighter and your pay was being cut but you still have to pay a full mortgage, pay higher prices for gas and groceries would you go quietly?
How greedy can firefighters really be if they have city managers who are paid bonuses for keeping the budget in line? Is it not the managers jobs to keep the budget in line? So why do they get bonuses? I don't see the firefighters getting bonuses for every life they save, after all I would think saving a life would be more important than keeping the budget in line.. Why is it such a bad thing to want it in writing that no one gets pay raises or bonuses if the firefighters are taking a pay and benefit cut?
Enough said!
Not all the firemen make over $100,000 that is where you are wrong. The ones that do make that much work an enormous amount of overtime. The fire department didn't bankrupt Vallejo. The bottom line is there is a safety issue here. Soon Auburn will not be able to get qualified experienced firemen to stay and that will effect the safety of the public as well as the fire personnel that remain.
Smokedbear, If I still tried to charge per square foot what I got three years ago. I wouldn't have done a single remodel or built a house this year. So yes I have lowered my prices, I would be out of business if I didn't. I also pay the same prices for gas and grocies as the firefighters. I also put money in a 401K..because I don't get to retire at 50. It is time for people to live with in their means, I have had to take side jobs, small remodels. So don't complain about working overitme. It isn't called overtime, when you own your own business. A business that payes thousands of tax dollars.
SmokeBear:
There are NO BONUSES being paid to anyone. Explain to me why everyone in the City should take a 10% cut or layoffs and the firefighters should be exempt? Also, our Fire Chief has told us he believes we do not have a safety issue with our full time people and the part timer people we have hired.
Dr Bill Kirby
TaxPayer, Im getting the feeling you have no idea what Firefighters go through from training to the time they retire. You own your own business, awesome, cragrats. And I do belive when you decideded to become a business owner you did know there would be no overtime, correct? And honstly reading past posts, I think you are just mad that you have to pay texes at all. And guess what, Firefighters also pay taxes, shocking I know. And regarding a ealier post, Firefighters do have respect for city council, so where is the respect for the Firefighters? And "run for your self", sorry lil busy.
Mommyof1, You must read the posts a litle more careful. Everyone who earns a wage pays taxes. I believe America was created by hard working and driven people. Part of which is paying taxes for schools, highways and public services. I am not mad at all, I willing pay my fair share. I am also somewhat intune with the economy. Our city council migth just be ahead of the curve, the taxes rolles are going to drop another 15% this next fiscal year. Remember when the median house price was up around 445,00 in 2005, now it is around 245,000. That is a $200,000 drop on the average home. It equates to around $2,100 year in lost revenue. There is a time lag in the reassements.
So you are to busy to run for yourself, then campiagn for a canidate that supports your views.
It is not a secert to what it takes to become a firefighter. From fire academies to on the job training to a great vacation schedule. I know several firefighters and chiefs through out the state. I know what they go through. Yes they deserve respect, just as much as the public works guy that comes out and deals with a sewage line failure, it takes all the departments to make a city work. Firefighters are not showing respect by using this forum to complain about the precieved injustices being done to them by the city council. The city council is vested with the cities best intrests and not just one department.
Dr. Kirby, If you don't understand why firefighters and peace officers are more important to the city then any other city employee, I doubt that it can be explained to you. If you can't afford to pay them what they deserve, then contract these services out.
Taxpayer, why should they not speak their view? Are they exempted from the protections of the 1st amendment because they are firefighters? Comparing a firefighters' commitment, dedication, professionalism, and education to that of a sewer worker is like comparing apples to oranges. Public safety is government's number one priority over any other mission.
Realist:
It sounds like you are pitting one set of employees against the other. As a physician and surgeon, I understand that I cannot do my job without everyone on the team doing their job. I do not agree that other city employees should take bigger cuts than any other. My son-in law is a police officer and drives 45 miles one way to work. He was going to take a job closer to home but realized that he would be the last hired and first fired. Everyone is feeling the effects of our economic downturn.
Bill Kirby
Taxpayer, yep, cops and firefighters CAN retire at 50. Most do not. There's a reason for that age selection. Do you want 62 year old firefighters cutting holes in rooftops, crawling blind in hallways, or hiking up hillsides during wildfires. Or maybe you'd like to see a 62 year old cop wrestling in the stree wih the 30 year old parolee with the body built by Folsom
prison. Come on, use your brain. And you claim to know what he training is to become a cop/firefighter? Really? Have you attended the academy? There's a reason it's called basic academy. It's basic and just he beginning of a career of constant training. Do you really want to compare the training it takes to swing a hammer to heir training. Your post smacks of ignorance. Yes, I've worked construction and swung a hammer amongst other duties on site. It's mind numbing.
Have enjoyed the conversation...I have a friend that just retired in his early 50's with Toledo Fire...he is a very happy man. Now can someone explain to me how anyone gets 90% of their pay for the rest of their life after retirement...anywhere in the United States and at the age... what 50? Is someone telling me that when a fireman retires...the city continues to pay them a salary at 90% until they die? So when we hire the replacement fireman...how much is the new person actually costing all us taxpayers......the new salary + the retired paid salary= 100% new + 90% retired= 190% for one replacement position? Are taxpayers paying for a phantom fire department that does not exist? Who is signing these contracts for the taxpayers anyway? So the State of California is paying for one government... and then an entire phantom government and some wonder why we are broke and the budget is broken? If I am wrong..please correct my thinking.
harleyrider, you are a breath of fresh air compared to taxpayer. I get frustrated with taxboy, and when I look back in here, you have made wonderful accurate posts, and as a Firefighter myself (not in auburn city) and my Firefighter Husband (also no longer in auburn city), I thank you.
Harleyrider, Most cops and firefighters are retiring around 52, Cal pers has this info available. Hopefully by the time these cops and firefighters are 50 or more they are helping out in a ancillary duty. Such as training, prevention, public education and being chiefs. Most career fiirefighters are starting there career around 25, so they are reaching max by 55. If they work past that it is for the love of the job and not the money.
Yes 500 plus hours if it is a professional academy. Then your probie year, you make it through that you are basically tenured. Once you are off probation, very hard to get fired. Then it comes to the specialty classes, EMT, Paramedic, Hazardous materials and mangement classes. If you really want to add on the overtime you get qualifications to work on large fires and natural diasters. Work 48 hours a week, work around 60 shifts a year ( 120 days), earn vacation time enough to take at least a couple shifts a year off. So you work around a 110 days a year not bad, any extra training is overtime, cover behind vacations overtime, large fires overtime.
Lets put some myths to bed, Firefighting is a job. It is a dangerous job with built in mitigation measures. On average 105 firefighters die yearly. That is from NIOSH. That is sad. 290 plus farm workers and ranchers die a slient death each year on the job, no honor there. How many of military are actually dying in each year? That is true honor for $1600 a month
Dr. Kirby,
I was merely pointing out that during other years that bonuses are paid and people get raises. How often do firefighters get bonuses? Why would the firefighter not want something in writing that says if they have to take cuts no one gets a bonus or raise. After what has been happening with the banking/financial industry and their big bonuses I would be asking for the same. It is a trust issue and all to often we see the legislature and other government groups vote themselves a raise while they take away from the employees. I worked in the government long enough to see this time after time.
I think the Fire Chief is right at this very moment. But what happens to your fire department when people leave to work for a department that is more secure? This changes the dynamics of your fire department and even though you are getting service, are you getting the service you were? If a firefighter leaves you have a void than can be filled and in most cases you do not see any difference. Lose a company officer with years of experience and knows Auburn and its infrastructure and you lose a lot. Things such as building layouts (comes in handy during a structure fire rescue), its quirky water system (as it relates to fires in various areas), and of course fire history and how these fires were fought (what worked and what didn't). You cannot put a dollar amount on that.
The city is trying to make the best of it and the firefighters just want a little assurance.
Your right taxpayer. High body count in the profession=honor. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!! Yes, firefighters and cops get a nice retirement. Mostly through investements with cal pers. So the city is not footing the bill. They contribute, just like the employee. Is it generous, sure. There's a reason for that. They don't just hire anyone to be cops and firefighters. The hiring selection is VERY competitive and they hire mostly top applicants. You get what you pay for. Otherwise, everyone would do it. We'd all be cops, firefighters, spec ops, fighter pilots, astronauts, engineers, blah blah. Get it?
Obewan, If a firefighter puts in 30 years they will retire with 90% of their salary for life, most department have 3% at 50. The unfunded liabilty that is going to hit our next generation is coming. Most of these small cities have just come in to the Pers program in the last 15 or 20 years. Pers is talking about going to a two tier system, they know they can't keep up. The cities and counties are paying into the pers fund. The firefighters also usally get some sort of medical or health benefits both of which cost money. Most people don't know how good the firefighters have it. That is why almost 15,000 people just took San Fransicos test, there is a group that knows about the huge benefits.
Mommyof1 I didn't personally attack you, I have only stated facts. Reality sucks sometimes. Harley rider hasn't stated any facts just opinions and that is fine, so how can you can call him more accurate. Intresting, you need to take the emotion out of it and realize what it is. Facts are boring, it is kind of like school, but opinons are what soap operas are made of.
Why has this discussion changed to substantiating current pay? All the firefighters are trying to say is that they gave to the cause when they omitted two positions. They did that before anyone asked. Doesn't that count for anything? Asking them to give a total of 12% (counting loss of benefits and pay) is like double jeopardy. Why can't anyone on the council see that? They haven't been exempt! They have already saved $170K by giving up the two battalion chiefs!!!!
Having part-time firefighters has to change the quality of the service we taxpayers receive. They are only taking the job so they can get experience, training and hopefully a job in the future. What would you answer if you were the fire chief? Would you admit there was a safety issue? I think not.
I think it is pretty big of the firemen to agree to the cut after already losing two positions, so why are you being so petty about semantics?
Give them a little reassurance your word means something.
Tax payer you are stating facts that is good but they are generalized and you are using them to prove you point .you don't know the facts about Auburns Fire Department. Read foresters posts and some of the others. The firemen have already given up a lot and they are already 40% below the average pay in this area. Why don't you read some of the articles in AJ that has the city manager saying how well off the city is financially. For years the cities fire service was volunteer(free) and because of changing times the city needs a full time skilled department and the city won't have that if they short change their personnel.
SmokeBear:
We guaranteed there would be no bonuses or raises this year and they could use this against us if we did. We cannot put in one union's contract wording that affects other City employees. What would satisfy them of our intent that we can do?
Dr Bill Kirby
taxpayer: its cute how you can jump on Google and find facts. Harleyrider has stated facts, maybe you are just reading what you want and not all of it. How can you tell me to take the emotion out of it, when if emotion wasnt a big part of this, we couldnt care. They saying imagine if you were in my shoes ( or boots in this case ;) ) is very true here. And really, comparing the emotions here with a soup opera, shows more of the disrespect you have for Firefighters. "Friends with many Firefighters" or not, no respect shown on your part here.
Taxpayer..maybe you can explain a little better how retirement pay can go from 3% and then somehow jump to 90%. Where is all this money coming from...say 100K salary at 90%.. paid out for 17 years=$1,530.000.00 in retirement salary...who then put this money into the retirement till?...os it the individual fireman or the city? $1,530,000.00 divided by 30 years means the individual fireman would have had to put aside for his retirement $51,000.00 per year for 30 years? So based on this formula a 43K fireman is actually a 94k fireman? You stated they also receive some other type benefits like health care on top of this.. and what is that dollar amount?
Taxpayer, you just proved my point. When was the last time 15,000 took a test to swi g a hammer? That
eans we are weeding ounweak applicants and getting the best of the best. Do you think before you post? Thank you.
Dr. Kirby,
I have read that in your earlier post. If you do not intend to give bonuses or raises and have stated such then why can it not be put into writing? Have the other city employees been asked if they are willing to allow this? Not being an Auburn firefighter I can only assume there is a very strong reason for their request. Sometimes its honoring the process that creates the faith needed to get through tough times.
SmokedBear:
Our attorney says that we cannot put that wording into one union contract that affects others not in the union. Find out a way that will satisfy them and I will try to get it done. We have made it clear we will not give bonuses or raises and that could be used against us if we violated that promise.
Bill Kirby
Dr. Kirby, I am not pitting one group against the other. I am merely pointing out to another poster that they are not equal. I am surprised that you don't get this. After all, do you expect your salary to be equal with the person that cleans the operating room after you are done with a procedure? After all, you are on the same team! No, your education, expertise, and value are greater than a low or non-skilled employee. Not all public workers provide the same value in service. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is true. And no I don't work for the city and I am not a firefighter. But I value the person who runs into a burning building to save my loved ones! I wouldn't want the job and I am willing to pay well for some one to do it.
Realist...you would be surprised at the skill level required to clean an operating room after a procedure...the skill level is equal to the doctors....the play ground appears to be the only difference....
Obewan, The firefighters get 3% of their salary for for each year of service. So if they work 30 years, 90% and at age 50 that is when they can retire. So If someones salary was 100,00, they would get $90,000 for the rest of their life. Lets assume 20 years, 1.8 million dollars. The city pays into Cal Pers (public employees retirement system). The city has asked the fire fighters to pay 9% of the salary to pers. Currently the city picks up the tab. The city doesn't put in the full amount. They are hedging on the fact that Cal Pers investements will out pace inflation and their future liablilty. So a $80,000 dollar year employees cost the city more like a $120,000. Fourty percent for burden is being conservative. Most government entiities figure on employees costing 1 1/2 times theri salary.
For those that have kept Cal Pers has taken a huge dive in their investments. They will not be able to fund the future liabilities if government doesn't change.
Stumpbranch, I feel ba d for everyone in todays economy. The other cities are going to come into line, just not as quick. They can not sustain these spending habits. I am sorry mommyof1 feels the emotional side. The truth is we need to be looking 5 and 10 years down the road. Set your fire depatment up for success in the end. It isn't all about right now. Firefighting is a job, we all have to have jobs. Some take a little more risk for their pay and recieve just compensation.
OK Auburn Firefighters lurking out there lets try something different here. I know you have retained council but anyone want to provide some valuable suggestions in an open format for all to see and read? To keep this on the up and up you will need to provide something that Dr. Kirby can trace back to the fire department to identify it came from Auburn firefighters.
Its worth a shot!
Smokedbear, That is a excellent idea.
Taxpayer...thanks for the info.....the numbers really do not seem to add up based on a 3% pay in. The investment would have to be a ponzi scheme at best to yield that kind of profit from a 3% investment over 30 years.........I would like to invest on a 60k salary 3% which is $1800.00 per year for 30 years or a total investment of $54,000.00 and get what 1.8 million? What planet are these people on? Thats an average of 33.3% return on initial investment? Pers must be some kind of superstar investors....Madoff.......... wasn't even that good.........a 33.33% percent average investment return... would land most investors...in jail.
The Yankees won again @#$%^(*&^%.
If anyone has a suggestion please let me know.
Bill Kirby
home 8852124
flyingsurgeon210@yahoo.com
They already gave up 2 positions and are 40% below the average pay in placer county. The city hasn't gave up spending they are doing more projects than ever. How much money would the city save if they didn't hire a negotiator or all the consultants. There is money to be saved the city just need to change their priorities.
Hey Doc,
What's the citys position on making money for the fire department responding to calls?
Fire Recovery USA
http://www.firerecoveryusa.com/
Keep the faith Doc. - Eat Tasty Cakes & Cheese Stakes - Once Boston was out - I shifted to the Angels - now go Phillies - down but not out! - Public Safety is not exempt from the perils of a tough economy - we are all hurting & need to take the lumps, be thankful we still are working & "hope" it gets better! BTW - what's your take on the new Health Care Plan?
Does anyone have the answer for the high retirement package that obewan has questioned.Being a firefighter is a very hard job and should be paid well.I own a top floor rental condo right behind a station in sacramento.When i lived there, i could look right down on the back of the station.The amount of basketball they played a day was crazy.There was alot of down time in a in a 24 hour period.I think the firefighters should be payed well ,when they are out there doing the very hard job When they are sleeping and the off time,why can't they be payed a different pay rate.I think this would seperate the ones that are doing it for the love of the job, than the tittle. I know a few older firefighters that have been around a while.They have noticed since 9/11 alot of the recruits that they see entering the field,are in it for the prestige and they have a I'm better than you attitude.
SmokedBear, do you really think the Firefighters are going to jump on here and let both their detractors and the City Council their plan of action before a scheduled meeting? Im sure if they have "valuable suggestions" they will go ahead and meet directly with the City before they spill it on here. And really the only people who need to hear suggestions are the City, not hundereds of people who are not directly involved with the contract.
taxpayer, ofcores you would think thats a excellent idea, you could add it to you list of facts and numbers
Mommyof1, Just trying to get something going. Dr. Kirby seems willing to toss ideas around and even left his home number on here. Sometimes its the walls that need to be knocked down to get some real dialog going. How far does postering really get you?
The other part of sharing information in a format like this is that you may just win someone over who is against what you are doing once they really understand it. The power of the people should never be underestimated!
I have no dog in this fight, just trying to give people things to think about.
Dr. Kirby, I too am looking forward to a dimming prospect of a Philadelphia win! We can at least agree on that!
SmokedBear, having been at both sides of the bargaining table over the years let me tell you that this "postering" is a double edged sword, it cuts both ways. Rest assured that in a financial situation like the country is in today, the position of the firefighters will be seen by some as selfish. In that case you may have lost some support, on the other hand you may gain some. My bet is that because most people work in the private sector and it has taken one heck of a beating going on two years that you will find support for your cause waning.
I always felt that putting too much information out there, whether from the Union or the Company was counterproductive and it created an atmosphere that was not conducive to real, unencumbered, no loss of face bargaining. It is much better to bargain over the table than in public forums, even the Union's membership or the Company's management.
Bear in mind one thing, no matter what, the union will not get one penny more in wages or benefits that the Company can afford to give, in this case the City. Also bear in mind that it is not fair for any other union to have their bargaining written on another union's contract.
I'm being as objective as I can and hope that an agreeable and fair settlement can be reached. Good luck to both parties involved and let's all hope that we come out of this financial mess sooner rather than later.
Is the money the issue or the process being used to deal with employees at the table flawed? Maybe the firefighters are looking for a change in the process. Ask the Auburn Public Works and Police Association how they were treated at the nigotiating table. The firefighters asked that if the managers and department heads got a raise that they be treated the same. If there is no money than that shouldn't be a problem. How many times over the years were they told that there was no money and the next council meeting the City Manager was given a performance bonus?
The doc still hasn't answered the question about how much they are paying their negotiator or about the 2 positions the fire department already gave up. Funny that he was so quick to give out the firemens pay scale but not so quick with these answers.
stumpbranch, I hate to tell you this and perhaps you don't care but your constant barrage is having a negative effect on me, I must assume that it does on others also unless they are part of the bargaining unit.
Don't cut your throat for the sake of venting.
loomisresident: that needs to be told to Smokedbear
If the city is unhappy with the cost of fire protection provided by its firefighters, put out a RFP for fire protection, see what it would cost to contract with CAL FIRE or consider going back to a All-Volunteer Department.... Trust me... neither is a acceptable option.
Cal Fire costs approx. $800,000. annually for 2 person- BLS Company and 1 million annually for ALS.... The city is too large and fire dept. too busy to ever return to the "all volunteer days".... If the city won't budge..... then the fire chief needs to start working on a Bond or Tax Measure for fire protection. Money would keep salaries at current scale ( no reduction) and open a 2nd station w/ 2 personnel OR start a ALS program which could include Transport Services...Another thing to look at... is Prop 174 money, which was voted in several years ago for Public Safety... Meant for Law and Fire... However in Placer County.. Placer County OES give ALL the money to LAW and zero to any fire agencies-city or districts. To the Auburn Firefighters: easier said than done- I know... But its time to play hard ball with the City.
If the city wants their own fire department, then they should pay for it... Have them talk to Placer Consolidated... CAL FIRE cost North Auburn alot more than Placer Consolidated ever did. Take the paper-pushers in the council on a 48 hours ride-along !!!!!
firewatcher, see you know your suff, very nicely put.
Stumpbranch:
On Friday I asked the questions and still do not have the answers. I have always tried to answer questions but there was no one over the weekend to get me the info. I am working on it.
Dr Bill Kirby
Mommyof1:
I had no idea that I had so greatly offended you. I thought this was an open forum allowing the free flowing of ideas and opinions. I am in America right?