What is a cradle Catholic to think?

Yes, Holy Mother Church is mysoginistic and homophobic and condones pedophilia, too. So this "cradle Catholic" thought rationally and become an Episcopalian.

Skeptic,

Does this mean you're a Rational_Thinker?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;-)

The Catholic Church is becoming more and more irrelevant everyday. Many "cradle" Catholics, like my Grandmother, are happy to have the Church more inclusive. But sadly, the bulk of the Church is run by extreme conservatives who will, in my opinion, be the death of the Church.

It's a complicated issue and I'm not even going to try and summarize it this morning. Suffice to say... the Church is on the run, desperately grasping whatever they can along the way in order to keep themselves afloat. There will have to be a major overhaul is they chose to remain relevant to Catholics and society as a whole.

Pax vobiscum

While the whole gay/women priest thing is confusing to me, I am already what would be called a liberal-heretic Catholic and I feel the sting by super-right Catholics I know. It's ok because I have already forgiven them for "they know not what they do". Hopefully they feel the same about me. Thank God for the old Irish nuns and priests. :-)

Birch, Observer,

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, and that "with God all things are possible", then it would logically follow that He will preserve His church supernaturally if need be. Nothing man is doing, or can do, will change that.

Greg: That's "if" I find the Body of Christ within the Church. It would more oft than not appear that there is no longer any room for the Fr. Thomas Mertons, the St. John of the Crosses, the St. Theresas of Avila.... St. Francis of Assisi would have been excommunicated a long time ago.

"We drive by night. Nevertheless our reason penetrates the darkness enough to show us a little of the road ahead. It is by the light of reason that we interpret the signposts and make out the landmarks along our way." - Fr. Thomas Merton

Carol: Your letter is confusing. In one part it seems you are criticizing the church for being too liberal, and another for being to conservative.

Which is it?

The Catholic Church is really getting into doing money laundering for the Republican Party, by financing various state propositions, amendments, initiatives, etc, that target certain minorities to take away their civil rights. They donated to Proposition 8 in CA, and the Diocese of Portland, Maine, is directly contributing thousands of dollars to the Maine People's Veto #1, to overturn the legislature, along with the money laundering campaign finance club the National Organization "for" Marriage, which is merely a front for the LDS church to get tax deductions, exceed campaign contribution limits, and function as a PAC without having to file donor disclosure forms- so far, as they are now under investigation in several states.

They've been doing a lot of direct politicking and soliciting for continued gay- bashing right in the church services in Maine, and it's turning off the attendees. Gee whiz, wonder why.

Rat: Your "lunatic fringe portion of the Democrat party" rantings are getting absurd. Even most Democrats are going to find you loony.

All that jewelry and ring-kissing and then the fine clothing and then the Swiss Guard protecting everything makes one want to know more about what really is going behind the scenes but will we ever know about this very powerful institution that remains firmly in place while its followers seem to be diminishing. Time for a female pope methinks. Has there ever been a black pope?

A sign of the times?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/cleveland_council_members_prep.html

Hail Mary full of grace, the Mormons are in second place. LMAO

Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland, Maine, Ballot Question, "support," People's veto #1, po box 11559, Portland ME treasurer the Very Reverend Andrew Dubois

http://www.mainecampaignfinance.com/public/entity_summary.asp?TYPE=BQC&ID=4528&YEAR=2009

cash contributions total so far $553,608 that's over a half million for those of you having a bad math day

Just in October, from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland

$47,000 on 10/15/09

$48,000 on 10/1/09

$50,000 on 10/20/09

__________________________

Stand for Marriage Maine.com PAC is the biggest one (this is the one getting all the money from "NOM," the front group for the LDS Church which won't disclose its donors ) treasurer Joseph Keaney

Cash contributions $2.5 Million dollars to the Maine's People's Veto #1

http://www.mainecampaignfinance.com/public/entity_financial_transactions.asp?TYPE=PAC&ID=4477

$500,000 half a million dollars from NOM to SFMM.com on 10/14/09

$300,000 another 3rd of a million from NOM to SFMM.com on 10/9/09

Stand for MarriageMaine.com are paying the Republican PR firm Schubert Flint of Sacramento all sorts of money, at least $30,000 a week, and Schubert Flint has also taken money THIS YEAR, concurrently, off of Prop 8 and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from the Cal access accounts on file with the state of CA.

________

One of the people working the Episcopal schism donated a million to Prop 8, and $$$ to McClintock, Ahmanson.

Canyon - There are many Catholic lay people, priests and nuns that do not possess the far-right bashing kind of heart, spirituality and beliefs, regardless of what Rome says. The Catholic Church does an incredible amount of good, as does many other religious groups. Many Catholics are openly gay, living with same sex people and not fornicating. You most likely only see one part of a much bigger picture, however, I just hate to see non-Catholics talking down in general terms, about Catholics.

Loycer - If we ever have coffee, perhaps I can enlighten you about the fine clothes and ring kissing. It makes more sense when you know what is behind it and to be in it. It is love and reverance for the one who sits in the chair of Peter. Yes, there has been 3 black popes.

Victor I (189 to 199)

Pope Miltiades (310/311 to 314)

Pope Gelasius I (492 to 496)

The Catholic laity has been forced to tolerate bad clergy for generations. I am aware of the constant consternation. However, when they cross the line into dedicating themselves to making other people as miserable as possible, as is the wont of Southern Baptist fundamentalists, and certain fringe elements of the LDS, AND they blatantly flaunt campaign finance laws, then that's my duty to say, not in my country under my government under this Constitution.

If they wish to engage in tormenting others and money laundering just to put in candidates that will continue to give them big tax breaks and lack of business regulations, which is what is going on here, that's where it crosses the line. And the line has. been. crossed.

Please, go ahead and do whatever you want otherwise in the privacy of your homes and meeting places. But if the "nice" people aren't running your organization's public relationships, but insist on the rest of us ignoring the people who are not only breaking the law, but are actively recruiting OTHERS to break the law, then you're passively enabling evil. Am I not my brother or sister's keeper, I just didn't get to pick what kind.

Easy for anybody to make excuses, or say just look at the rest of us who are nice people, those who didn't get their rights jerked away during the last election and who are ignoring what is going on in 26 other states where they are or are planning to mount more challenges,file more lawsuits.

Canyon - I would probably be in a better place if I had a conviction on the gay marriage situation. I really don't. Are gay people going to Hell? I hope not. I hope all that stuff in the Bible concerning gays just means that their life may feel like, or be Hell sometimes (not that I wish it for them) and that they will have peace someday. Perhaps that is what Hell is like for them when they want to be accepted, loved, allowed to love like the rest of us. I really don't know. Will them being allowed to marry affect my marriage? Of course not, and I hardly can believe that it takes anything away from me. If I am wrong, time will tell. It is truely one of the pivotal issues of our time and I hope we do right by others and right by God.

'semite_sham,

I noticed you didn't try to refute anything CanyonRat said. Instead you insulted him. Why is that?

Leviticus 18:22 does not condemn homosexulity. In transliterated Hebrew the verse is: "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toevah hee." This is literally translated as:

"And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman."

Some believers think that the verse is directed at men who engage in at least some form of anal sex with other men. But it doesn't say that. The verse is, unfortunately, incomplete. As translated, the phrase "lay lyings" has no obvious interpretation.

Unlike what the KJV English translation implies, toevah did not mean something intrinsically evil, such as murder. Toevah means something that is ritually unclean for Jews. Eating pork,birds of prey or shellfish, cross-breeding livestock, picking up sticks on a Saturday, planting a mixture of seeds in a field, touching a corpse, mixing fibers in clothing, trimming beards or touching a woman during her monthly niddah are acts of ritual impurity which made a Jew unclean, or toevah. Ceremonial uncleanliness is caused by contact with a forbidden object, or by engaging in activities which might be acceptable to goyim, but are forbidden to Jews. In many OT verses, toevah simply means idolatry.

But that's Old Testament stuff. Instead cherry-picking a lone verse from the OT, Christians should give greater weight to what Jesus himself had to say about homosexuality.

Nothing.

correction: "homosexulity" should read "homosexuality."

Septic: Which part of that was an insult?

I was observing the loony nature of Rat's writings.

We all realize that you are the gay chiropractor and thus you have a tendency to believe the anus is a playground, but its not. There are a lot of bacteria in there and a high chance of disease being transferred by engaging in that behavior.

Leviticus was a relevant book of health rules for the time it was written. Much of it's health advice and dietary rules became out dated with refrigeration, meat inspection, and modern medicines and condoms.

When the Roman Empire could not defeat Christianity, they took over the Church. All the early popes were members of Rome's ruling families. The Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire with relatives of Caesars ruling the Church. No value judgement here, just an historical comment.

My gay friends did not chose to be gay. God (if you belive that God is responsible for creation) made them. Therefore they were made in the image of God.

"There are a lot of bacteria in there and a high chance of disease being transferred by engaging in that behavior." even more so with kissing.

Mouth to Mouth....just to be clear.

Jon - That is an interesting view on the Roman Empire. Actually, sometimes I think that The Roman Empire and Egypt have gotten a bad rap by certain self-taught religionists. Those empires both had some good qualities/ideals and produced some very good people. I can't quite put my finger on it in a very clear way yet, but both empires fell short, became engorged on their undisciplined actions and ended up destoying themselves, much like human beings do in the singular sense. You would think we could learn from them, but we tend to demonize then and repeat their behaviors but there is nothing new under the sun...

Yes- I hear you about gay people. I have known some very righteous gay people. Perhaps if they stayed with one partner and practiced the same values, according to the Gospels or similar writings, they would be judged more fairly there than they are here. It is my hope.

Roland - Many people have very limited sexual contact whether they are gay, straight, married or unmarried. I think there is too much focus on sex, probably by people who are too focused on sex.

Observer. It's not an interesting view. It is an historical documented fact. It's part of the reason that all the early popes were married and had families.

Jon - I do not disagree with you as I have spent much more time focusing on spirituality, trying to understand and learning how to die to myself so that I can receive more from God. I don't really care about all the "facts", more about their meaning...

Observer, I understand. I have been more interested in the history or effect that historical events have had on spirituality. It's helpful to me to believe that after we die we live in the memories of the people we left behind. Today would have been my dad's 98th birthday. He lived a full life until he was 93 and he is still alive in my memory.

Jon - I do believe that history plays a huge part, an on-going part on our spirituality as a whole. I truely believe that our souls are immortal and that we DO live on, not just in other people's memories. We will all have to face death, but that death will relieve us of being bound by space & time and return us to where we came from. Perhaps it will be like always living in the present. I don't know, but there are those who transcend much of what binds most of us and they have tasted a shadow of what is to come. Those unspoken things we all have that come alive through words of gifted minds reveals things that we come to "know". It is a pearl of great price but worth putting everything else aside.

So here's to your father. In Peace, I do hope to meet him some day :-)

Have no fear in death for it is a natural process....your spirit will reunite with the force once again.

Observer...nice line...and should all take heed.

I can't quite put my finger on it in a very clear way yet, but both empires fell short, became engorged on their undisciplined actions and ended up destoying themselves, much like human beings do in the singular sense. You would think we could learn from them, but we tend to demonize then and repeat their behaviors but there is nothing new under the sun...

Obewan - You are quite an observer... :-)

Skeptic,

CanyonRat is a woman. I remember many months ago she referred to her husband. I mean, that's usually what someone means when they say "husband". I don't really care if she's a woman or a man, she's on the fringe with her daily rantings about McClintock, Doolittle, anyone Republican.......you know what I'm talking about.

Whether she's right or wrong is of no consequence. She's a boring one note symphony.