If you can't control your horse then maybe you should keep it off the trail. I know this trail well and because of the holier than thou attitude of the equestrians we stay away from it. It is a nice trail and wonderful to hike but who wants to go where horses are a threat.

The best rider in the world cannot control a horse that has been spooked by an idiot riding a bike up from behind and appearing out of nowhere.

Horses' survival instinct is to spook. A good rider has trained their horse to maintain its composure, and when it fails to maintain its composure a good rider can get it back into control quickly, however, if you are on a steep hill and someone comes up from behind quietly and appears out of nowhere, the horse spooks and the rider may not have time to recover.

The signs are up there. No excuse.

"black-and-yellow-Spandex-clad criminal came blasting down..."

Spiderman?

As a mountain biker and horse rider I can tell you that it is almost impossible for the two to coexist. On single track trails a bike zooming down at over 20 miles an hour poses a threat to hikers, equestrians and other mountain bikers. Braking at the last minute will cause the tires to slide and the bike will go into whatever is on it's way. The solution is to have separate trails, which already exist, by the way, there is one by Salmon fall that is for bikes only. When the bike race takes place in Cool the trail is closed to all other use. I don't care whether you are on foot, on a horse or a bike, the signs are there for a reason, safety being the primary concern and people must obey them. A lot of cyclists tear down the signs so that they can use the "didn't see any sign excuse"

I also agree that horses should be desensitized as much as possible, this is a form of insurance for the rider. However, there are times that no amount of desensitizing will prevent an accident. One example is a bike coming from behind the horse and possibly striking it, another is sliding into it or four or five consecutive riders. It's pretty easy to control a horse when it's only one bike but after a number of them it is pretty hard.

There are signs on the multipurpose trails, they show an inverted triangle and explains the right of way. The horse always have the tight of way, followed by hikers and then the cyclists, this is also ignored.

Bicycles are politically correct vehicles because they don't use petrol and don't emit pollutants. Therefore, bicycle riders can do anything they want and that's not likely to change much, if at all. Ask the Auburn PD how many citations they've issued in 2009 for bikes running stop lights and stop signs. I'll bet it's either zero or close to it.

Continued- There are two types of Mountain bikers. One, those like me who go out for the enjoyment, as a matter of fact the wife and I often go out on multi use trails and I ride the bike and she rides her horse, our horses are totally used to bicycles and everything else including packing out game. The other type is the "technical rider", these are the trail warriors, hell bent for leather and they don't care about anyone else. Those are the ones that tear down the signs, cause wrecks, provide the one fingered salute and all those things that endear them to the other users on the trails, they are alone in the Universe, no one else matters.

The solution can be simple or complicated, they range from alternate days for each discipline although that has failed in the past, the "rights" group always wants their rights to ride when they want to not when they are told they can, they are usually dressed very colorfully. The simplest solution is to obey the signs, that solves the whole mess and doesn't endanger anyone.

Dialogue also has much merit. Perhaps having equestrians attending bicycle meetings and vice versa would be very productive.

Just remember, there are many people in the planet, you're not the only one and causing injury or death is not pleasant although our jails and prisons are full of people that obviously didn't care as to what damage they caused.

Signs on trails are like signs on highways and should be treated as such.

ChuxxR, if you can't control your mouth before you are educated on the topic.....

the trail was NOT DESIGNED FOR THIS and these people who are deliberately breaking the rules should be charged with a crime because they are idiots who are going to get somebody killed.

There are many, many places a bicycle can go that a horse can not. This is testosterone laden aggression no different than assaulting someone randomly in public under the guise of it was exercise.

Good Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!! two days in a row that I must agree with C_R.... If this continues I think I will need to see a Psychologist...LOL

LR: I am a fan of using alternate days. As it is, we cannot ride our horses on multi-use trails because of the danger it represents. We have broken our horses to bicycles, but even a well broken horse can get spooked when something pops out of nowhere and even the best rider can have the horse jump 2 feet before getting it reigned in. Two feet can be fatal in some locations.

I hear that Placer County sheriffs are going to start enforcing the street laws on bicyclists. This is great!

I find it a huge irony for someone who pretends they are out for the exercise speeding through a stop sign because its sooooo much effort to stop and restart.

Yosemite_Sam, it seems like you are always on here babbling about the law, and how good all these laws are, how everyone needs to abide by them. You seem to think no matter what the law is, it is a good one just because it is enforceable. If there were a law that said you, and only you, had to get on your keens for every law enforcement official you saw, you would agree with it and think it was a good idea just because it is a law. How about you start using your head for a change, and start looking at things for how they really are. If a law makes sense, good. If it doesn't you don't have to bow down to it. Stop being a sheep, and learn how to think!

And here lies the problem with America... Ppl do what they want, where they want, when they want, regardless of existing laws or the consideration of the potential threat/danger they impose. Cell phones are one great example!

Ppl just don't get it! They're just too stuck in their bubbles.

Misfit are you just attacking Y_S or do you agree that tearing down posted signs, and violating laws that are in the books is fine? I was taught that if I felt that a particular law was not good, obsolete or otherwise useless that I should work to change it not just disregard it.

The worst encounter I've had on the trails was when I was kiking between the Confluence and Lake Clementine. A biker came downhill at a point in the trail that gave me two options, either jump to my right about 20 feet into rocks and river or jump to my left to a thistle patch. I took the second option since I wasn't about to break a leg, arm or worse by going down 20 feet. However since it was summer I was wearing shorts and spent a great deal of time picking thorns out of my skin. The idiot, yes, idiot that caused the accident did not hear me yelling "heads up" since he was listening to his IPOD. Since that time when I hike I take walking staffs with me, the next incident, if it happens, both of us will feel some pain.

Our horses are used to bicycles, motorcycles, chain saws, tractors, quads, UTVs, you can even fire a gun, high caliber such as a 30.06 next to them, but there are times that things get to them. If this happens on a two foot wide trail with a 100 foot drop to one side and a near vertical wall on the other the consequences can become tragic. Is this what these people want? To cause pain or death to prove a point or support their perceived rights? And the answer is?

Mr. Davis, Loomis et. al.

You guys using the trails on a regular basis should be able to enforce the rules without waiting around for a tragic accident to occur. I know equestrians have their hands full, but maybe hikers should bring their cameras along? Do you think the trail warriors will mind having their pictures taken while on the trails reserved for others? I'll bet their flashy outfits and fancy bikes are very unique and reflect their "individuality".

It would be interesting to compare all the pictures to know if there are just a one or two repeat offenders or many? Of course, I am not suggesting stalking trail sign outlaws but some information gathering cannot hurt and you may find it is only a few and that they are extremely camera shy. As with all law breakers, however, you should be prepared for the possibility that they will attempt to destroy any evidence of their illegal activities.....Good luck

People just need to share the trails....I've never heard of a situation where a shared trail system had a bunch of fatalities due to mountain bikers....or hikers....or people on horses. The statement that 'we were here first' is plain silly....were you truly here first...hikers probably beat you to it...maybe it should be a hiker only trail....but no that would be unfair. Mountain bikers should slow down on the blind corners and people on horseback should ensure that their horse is exposed to people more then a couple of times a year....and should clean up after their horses..I pack out what I pack in. If the trail cannot be used concurrently, it should be divided up by days of week or time of day so that citizens can use their property. 99.99% of the people I encounter on the trails are super friendly and in control of their bike/horse and there is no problem..if fact it is nice to see active people out there...its that fringe group who heard about a friend of a friend who had a situation at some point somewhere where a mountain biker was a jerk. Enough of the selfishness and elitism.

"...and equestrians built the trail and were there first. " Um, this attitude is part of the problem. As is much of the below from both sides. Talks have been attempted but there is out right refusal to discuss from some. There are bad apples on both sides. Follow the $$. Trail rights and the cost to maintain trails will eventually move towards there user base. Regardless of use designation waste should not be allowed to be left on trails. Pick up your trash and clean up after your horse.

So what is the solution?

More laws? Who will enforce them in this new economic climate? Angry words and harsh judgements? Nunbskull,? Crimial,? How about we escalate a war between us and them?

Maybe a little civility and grace is in order here. A soft answer.

The Yellow clad man is a work in progress as am I, as are you. He may be a bit pompous and testosterone laced, what is your frailty? There are things he is yet to understand. Me too, you too?

Randy Martin

Randymartin, People “should” be more respectful and slow down, but they don’t. Yes, we are all works in progress. The problem I see is that if you get two people that have the same “frailty,” and are “testosterone laced,” it will end up in a fight. The whole idea of the law was to prevent this kind of thing and prevent injuries. If the bikers don’t like the law, they should organize to change it, not break the law. If we all have the attitude that we may break the law if we don’t like it, all hell would break lose. I can think of many laws I disagree with, but I don’t take it upon myself to do what I want and break the law.

The trail is near my house. It should not be a horse trail as it is best suited to hikers.

Loomis I had the same experience of having to make a choice the cliff or the other side. The equestrians shouted for me and my son to get downhill from the horses which would put us at the edge of a cliff. They said it was in case the horses spooked they wouldn't fall off the cliff. Not a thought about our safety. If horses can't be controlled when passing hikers then they shouldn't be riding them in areas where hikers are to be found.

I have encountered rude bikers and agree they shouldn't use trails that are designated for other uses. But the horse people can be arrogant thinking their horse's lives are more important than people.

As I said we no longer use the trail because of the horses.

CanyonRat, chill out.

Who here has first person accounts of injury caused by mountain bikers on horse trails? Who was involved and what were the circumstances. I've never heard of any so I can't contribute....but I'm really interested to hear how deadly the hazard is. Let's here some stories. I have many stories about how I came upon some people on horses and we all said hi and continued on our way....but those don't make good postings.

I met a horseman once while my son and I were relaxing in the paved area at the end of the road on Robie Point. We were sitting on the rocks about twenty feet from the trail. He appeared out of nowhere and was riding hell bent for leather. As soon as he saw us he stopped on a dime with the horse rearing back on two legs. As I said he was at least twenty feet away and man was it an awesome sight to behold. Man and horse were one. He tipped his hat and said "sorry" and took off again on the other side down the trail. He was obviously in control of the horse at all times and that made me respect him. We were never in danger. That's something that I can't say for the other riders in that area.

ChuxxR, I am familiar enough with horses that if I were on foot and some idiot attempted to intimidate me with a horse, I could have them on the ground before they knew what happened and I am not large nor intimidating in appearance.... but I do know the psychology.... there are also, sometimes, in the riding world bad equestrians, usually green but sometimes just stupidly aggressive, and they will also attempt to run up your butt or over it.... endangering everybody... horses and humans, they don't last long in Horse World because other riders won't put up with it, either and will discipline them.

What you described is Green People Being Stoopid On Horsies. Proper trail etiquette says the rider coming from behind slows down and asks PERMISSION to pass, and the rider / horse/ bike ahead says when and where this happens. Until then they are to follow along at a safe distance out of kicking range at the same speed and not tailgate, no matter how much of a BIG HURRY they think they are in. When passing, the people/bike/horse pull over to a safe area uphhill and stop, never downhill, as passing horses/bikes can do something stupid and trip or gawk going by and everybody ends up in the canyon/over the cliff.

A person on the ground who goes downhill of a horse and then says nothing in silence is going to automatically spook most horses. Horses dislike intensely silent humans they perceive as lurkers because this is predatory behavior to them.

20 mph that is 5 miles per hour slower than the Max speed in a school zone. On my bike I can stop in about 15 feet. I don't doubt it is a little scary sitting on top of the beast, but all of this emotion over a 20 mile per hour cyclist? Take a pill!

Martin

The riders, meanwhile, who were dumb enough to suggest this, that the pedestrians get downhill, are with their body language on the horse, focusing their attention on the thing they are passing. They will have their head turned, the reins clenched, more weight in one stirrup, more weight on one hip, (and it will be the wrong hip, trust me) be squeezing with their knees and holding their breath and have their eyes on the humans.

They are, I guarantee, not looking at where they should be going. They're looking down, which tightens all their muscles all the way down their spines when flexibility= calmness.

The horse feels all this, and in horse language, their stupid human is signaling "concentrate on that lurker downhill" by grabbing onto them like a vise grip, and since the pedestrians probably have been told to shush up, and chances are the human doesn't know how to be neutral in horse visual cues, the horse is being signaled to be spooking on by.

First rule is you look up and where you want to go if you want the horse to get by. Watch bad riders. They don't do this, they rubberneck and gawk.

First rule is if you're on the ground and don't want to yield, you can tell the riders they're not passing until they get themselves under control, and do a bit of equine one on one. Most horses will stop if you look at them and raise your hand. The smart ones don't want to fall off the trails but sometimes their humans keep trying to force …

stupid word counter-

....the issue.

Talk to the horse.

____________________

Dear bicyclist, if I catch you your picture portrait is going up in the AJ photo gallery. (excellent suggestion, momof11 !!

Horse speed 4 to 6 mph max on many parts of that trail due to the danger factor. Yes, we all know you can go faster on a bicycle but we all know that doesn't equate to trail etiquette or intelligence. I've gone on these trails via different ways, and you're delusional if you think you can stop in time for anything oncoming at over 4mph walking..... BLIND SPOTS. I've never had a bicycle alert me to possible things ahead by rotating its handlebar ears or automatically slowing down, I've never had a bicycle respond to the words slow, check, step right, step left, or whoa, and I've never had a bicycle decide somebody doesn't look right for the situation and get me out of there quickly. I've never had a bicycle get between me and another bicycle and take a direct body blow so I wouldn't, either, but that's another story.

Get back on the asphalt if you want to play robo- chicken with other people's lives.

It's not like you don't have ROADS GOING TO YOUR HOUSE.

C_R well said, you do know horses and riders and a lot of them give the wrong signal to the horses, no doubt about it.

trailscape, going downhill on a bike at 20 MPH on a dirt trail I would like to see a controlled stop in 15 feet. You are going to slide, pure and simple and the looser the dirt the longer the slide.

If you read my posts you will notice that I refrain from calling people names except the one that did cause me some injuries, there won't be a unilateral injury next time, I guarantee it.

If you don't like the l;aw or feel discriminated about it work towards changing it don't just ignore it. If every citizen had the option of picking and choosing what law(s) they wanted to obey we would live in anarchy and someday, sometime, somebody is going to take weapons on the trail, now I am sure that you would not want that just as I would hate to see it.

The Internationa Mountain Bike Association has worked diligently to educate it's members on trail etiquette, they also work hand in hand with equestrian groups to create a civil environment where everyone can enjoy themselves. There are rotten apples in every barrel and they should be found and taken care of before the whole barrel spoils, that applies to all disciplines.

I enjoy the trails whether on foot, on two wheel or on a horse, I'm not there to pick fights or have to deal with inconsiderate people, I want them to enjoy themselves and allow me to enjoy myself. Your right ends where mine begins, really simple

It doesn't really sound like anyone here has had any kind of accident or injury related to bike meet horse...or anything even close....so I guess it is all down to legality. Feel free to report that biker, rider or hiker for whatever crime you feel has been committed....you aren't a cop so you'll have to leave it at that. Assault is a far worse crime than poaching trails. Otherwise enjoy the fact that there are still people who love the outdoors just like you and who would probably risk their lives to save yours if they found you injured out there. I'm sure that C_R, momo and loomisresident always play by the rules...but they are the minority. That said, people need to pay attention to the sounds of the environment and the speed at which they travel...be alert. The taking the picture thing cracks me up. I don't think anyone will care if their picture goes up in the AJ...and the one person who does care will have your camera.

Hmmmmmmmmm...how about putting up some gates that can be easily opened and shut from a saddled position. It wouldn't be much of a delay for a horse rider (unless he is galloping), but would slow the misplaced bikers down enough to hopefully avoid a collision or spooking. Maybe a bell at each gate so others can hear someone coming down the trail?

yeah bells on bikes and horses

ChuxxR: Was that you? Sorry if I scared you.

He didn't have a giant handlebar mustache. Sorry only in your dreams.

Hey, I or should I say my wife and friends found the solution to the problem of bike v. horses or hikers. They were riding with their respective granddaughters who are very nice looking, every biker they encountered stopped, dismounted and talked.....to the girls. So, if you want civility on the trails make sure you take some young, good looking ladies with you, and put them up front and also carrying the rear.

No kidding, they came home commenting about that.

Martin, no one is perfect and we all violate something sometime, the difference is when it is done on purpose and with with no regard for other people's safety.

Chuxxr, I have spoken to many riders on the trails that ride like the wind. This is just as dangerous as riding a bike at unsafe speeds. Horses are prey animals, no matter how well they are trained when they hear another horse running or one goes by them at a gallop their first instinct is to join them, of course the level of training and the rider's experience will determine the outcome. The point is that we must all consider our actions and their possible consequences. Let's make using our trails an enjoyable experience for all, after all, the trails belong to us all but let's use common sense, common courtesy and abide by the laws and rules.

Happy riding, whatever your choosing and happy hiking.

momof11, thank you for the idea of taking cameras on the trail. Most people do not because of possible confrontations since these are relatively recent incidents but to take pix of wildflowers, deer and any other nice thing we may encounter out on the trils, I have some great pictures of just about everything out there.

Due to a very unfortunate accident the wife of a friend was that cost her horse's life and injuries to the rider I have also taken pictures of violators on the trails. Unfortunately the State Park Rangers seem unable to do anything about it. Unlike cars which have a distinct form of identification in their license plates Mountain bikes or off road motorcycles do not, this makes positive identification almost impossible and any good lawyer can introduce so much doubt to the jury that conviction is impossible or nearly impossible to attain, this statement came from one prosecutor.

What we need is cooperation from everyone, otherwise anarchy and the resulting consequences will take place.

Have a great day.

There should be different areas for different activities! I ride dirt bikes... I do not expect to haul ass down a trail (marked for dirt bikes) and run into hikers and horses. I ride fast! I drive to stoneyford as Georgetown and Foresthill trails are to crowded. I am sure hikers and horse rider go places where they do not belong at times.

I have to admit that I am becoming more agitated with the bikers. I have not been one to get too involved in these debates in the past, but I am noticing more and more bikers violated the law and the rights of others. I’ve been on that trail and had a real close call one day. The biker was just a young guy and his Mom did more to him than I could have dreamed of so I let it go. The bikers do go way too fast on these trails, and I’m not just talking about a few. From what I have witnessed, the majority of them speed on this trail. I know nothing about horses, so the information provided by Canyonrat and Loomis has been very interesting and appreciated. Thanks to all.

it was in the mid 1980 when the trail was designated just for horses. at that time the horse lobby was more powerful than the bike lobby. we used to ride mountain bikes on the trail and hardly ever encountered more than one or two horses. in the beginning the trail was multi-use.

lonewolf, the case I mentioned about a horse getting killed and the rider injured was caused by illegal dirt bikes being ridden in the Folsom SRA Pioneer trail. This trail has always been designated for hikers and equestrians. The perpetrators are known to Law Enforcement however at this time the Placer DA is choosing to not prosecute, there could still be a civil suit due to the amount of evidence, witnesses, etc. As a frequent user of said trail since it is right behind my house I can tell you that Mountain bikes and dirt bikes constantly use them. The Rangers are powerless since they do not have the equipment to chase these idiots and ticket them. I wouldn't be surprised if someone didn't string a wire accross the trail, that could have devastating circumstances on either type of bike rider.

No rider or hiker in their right mind would go to a trail network designated for off road vehicles. But you're correct to a point. I have seen equestrians on the trail by Salmon Falls which is clearly marked Mountain Bikes only, I am sure there have been hikers there also but the incidence is much less than the bikers riding on non bike trails. Usually the hikers and equestrian get the heck out once they find out where they are at. Hey no group is perfect but there is a big difference between 1% and 50%.

Have a great weekend

ChuxxR, You have been reading too many stories, I think you may have fanticised seeing Ichabod Crane. A horse on a dead run sliding to a halt (paved area, uh huh) and then rearing up on its hind legs has been seen in a lot of Disney movies. Horse's are a flight animal, when they encounter something that startles them they can react in a manner that is dangerous to them, their rider and you.

It is unfortunate that some think that 20 MPH speed is OK for a mt. bike on a multi-use, or in this case, an illegally accessed hiker/equestrian trail. The CA Park codes specifically state that bikes must not exceed 15 MPH on any trail, and must slow to 5 MPH (walking speed) and yield when encountering hikers, equestrians and any other trail user, or on blind corners and hills. These laws are put in place to make sure that all trail users can be safe. If bike riders increasingly deface trail designation signs, illegally ride so as to endanger themselves and other trail users, and then become aggressive when called on it, their bikes will be banned from the trails. Not the people who ride bikes, because they can continue to hike, jog and ride the trails with the rest of us. As for the person who wanted data regarding excessive bike speed on California trails, the LA Department of Recreation and Parks to the Mountain Bike Task Force Working Group published the Majority Report in 2000. It is considered the most comprehensive survey ever done on trail conflict and injuries. It states, "a pattern of conflict and abuses on shared trails" with mountain bikes....that include "displacement, conflict, injuries, death, liability and environmental degradation." Horses and hikers are not the problem - they have been sharing trails for over 100 years - it is the speeding bike that is turning our nature trails into unsafe race courses. Is this what we, as a trail using public, want?

GrassValleyGuy Please site source details or a link to that report. We'd like to check it out and have so far been unable to locate it. Thanks.